On this “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” broadcast, moderated by Margaret Brennan:
- Vice President JD Vance
- Rep. Mike Turner, Republican of Ohio
- Rep. Jason Crow, Democrat of Colorado
- CBS News reporter Camilo Montoya-Galvez
Click here to browse full transcripts of “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan.”
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m Margaret Brennan in Washington.
And this week on Face the Nation, our exclusive interview with the new vice president, J.D. Vance.
Washington’s been a whirlwind of activity in the first week of the Trump 2.0 administration. But what’s real and what’s just on the president’s wish list?
(Begin VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Mr. Vice President, if you’re ready, we will dive right in.
J.D. VANCE, (Vice President of the United States): Ready to go.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: It’s a new era of governing in the nation’s capital. You will hear what the V.P. has to say about immigration, lowering prices for American consumers, reforming the agency that handles disaster aid, those tech titans supporting Trump, and the pardons of 1,500 people charged with crimes in the January 6 Capitol attack.
Plus, House Republican Mike Turner and Democrat Jason Crow.
It’s all just ahead on Face the Nation.
Good morning, and welcome to Face the Nation.
We want to get right to our interview with Vice President J.D. Vance, his first since taking office. We spoke with him yesterday in a ceremonial office adjacent to the White House.
(Begin VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Pete Hegseth, it was a tie, bipartisan opposition, smallest margin since the job was created. You had to break that tie.
If the nominee can’t unite your party, how is he going to lead three million people?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Well, look, I think Pete is a disrupter, and a lot of people don’t like that disruption, but, Margaret, that disruption is incredibly necessary.
If you think about all of those bipartisan massive votes, we have to ask ourselves, what did they get us? They got us a country where we fought many wars over the last 40 years, but haven’t won a war about as long as I have been alive. They’ve got us a military with a major recruitment crisis, a procurement price crisis that’s totally dysfunctional, where we buy airplanes for billions and billions of dollars, terrible cost overruns.
The delivery dates are always delayed. So we need a big change. Now, admittedly, there are people who don’t like that big change, but it is necessary, and it’s explicitly what Donald J. Trump ran on and I think part of the reason why the American people elected him their 47th president.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, the main objective is changing all of that, that it’s going to be Pete Hegseth alone?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: I would say the main problem is – or – excuse me – the main thing that we want Pete Hegseth to do is to fix the problems at the Department of Defense. And, unfortunately, there are many.
We’ve gotten into way too many wars that we don’t have a plan for winning. We’ve gotten into way too many misadventures that we shouldn’t have got into in the very first place. And our procurement process, Margaret, is incredibly broken. We’re in an era…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Those are policy decisions.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Well, of course, they’re policy decisions, but they’re also logistical and implementation decisions.
If you look at where we are with the rise of artificial intelligence, with the rise of drone technology and drone warfare, we have to really, top to bottom, change the way that we fund the procurement of weapons, the way that we arm our troops. This is a major period of disruption, and we think Pete Hegseth is the guy to lead the job.
Now, there’s another element to this, Margaret, too, which is we believe that military morale, at least until the election of President Trump, was historically low. You had the Army missing recruitment goals by tens of thousands of soldiers, and, already, recruitment is starting to pick up because Pete Hegseth is fundamentally a war fighter’s leader at the Department of Defense.
He is a guy who sees, not through the perspective of the generals or the bureaucrats. He looks at things through the perspective of the men and women that we send off to fight in our wars.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Both “The Wall Street Journal” and “The National Review,” conservative publications, as you know, have been critical of Tulsi Gabbard.
“The Review” called her an atrocious nominee who deserves to be defeated. They compared her defense of Edward Snowden, the fugitive, to – who stole U.S. secrets, to an attorney general who thinks the mob gets a bad rap.
Her refusal to accept U.S. intelligence findings that Assad gassed his own people, they said was like a nominee for OMB director not being able to count.
Does any of this give you pause putting her in charge of the U.S. intelligence community, yes or no?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: No, Margaret, look, these are publications that attacked Donald J. Trump obsessively, but those publications don’t determine who the president is. The American people do.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And ultimately supported him.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: And Donald J. Trump is the person who determines who his cabinet is, not these publications that I think, frankly, have lost relevance.
Here’s…
MARGARET BRENNAN: The Senate will ultimately decide.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Here’s Tulsi Gabbard’s – well, the Senate will provide advice and consent, as is its constitutional obligation, but I feel confident that Tulsi Gabbard will ultimately get through.
Two things that are important to know about Tulsi. First of all, she is a career military servant who’s had a classification at the highest levels for nearly two decades. She has impeccable character, impeccable record of service, and she also is a person who I think is going to bring some trust back to the intelligence services.
The bureaucrats at our intelligence services have gotten completely out of control. They’ve been part of the weaponization of our political system, the weaponization of our justice system. We need to have good intelligence services who keep us safe, but part of that is restoring trust in those services, and we think Tulsi is the right person to do it.
That’s why the president…
MARGARET BRENNAN: She doesn’t trust those intelligence services.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: She recognizes the bureaucrats have gotten out of control, and we need somebody there who’s going to rein them in and return those services to their core mission of identifying information that’s going to keep us safe.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You campaigned on lowering prices for consumers. We’ve seen all of these executive orders. Which one lowers prices?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: We have done a lot.
And there have been a number of executive orders that have caused, already jobs to start coming back into our country, which is a core part of lowering prices. More capital investment, more job creation in our economy is one of the things that’s going to drive down prices for all consumers, but also raise wages, so that people can afford to buy the things that they need.
If you look at our slate of executive orders…
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, grocery prices aren’t going to come down?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: No, Margaret, prices are going to come down, but it’s going to take a little bit of time, right?
The president has been president for all of five days. I think that, in those five days, he’s accomplished more than Joe Biden did in four years. It’s been an incredible breakneck pace of activity. We’re going to work with Congress. We’re, of course, going to have more executive orders, and we’re going to try – the way that you – you lower prices is that you encourage more capital investment into our country.
And you asked specifically, what executive order is going to help lower prices. All of the stuff that we’ve done on energy, to explore more energy reserves, to develop more energy resources in the United States of America. One of the main drivers of increased prices under the Biden administration is that we had a massive increase in energy prices.
Donald Trump has already taken multiple executive actions that are going to lower energy prices, and I do believe that means consumers are going to see lower prices at the pump and at the grocery store, but it’s going to take a little bit of time. Rome wasn’t built in a day.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: And while we’ve done a whole lot, we can’t undo all of the damage of Joe Biden’s presidency in four days.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, there were a lot of things that contributed to higher energy prices. And there was record oil and gas production.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Yes, Joe Biden did many…
MARGARET BRENNAN: But the price of eggs…
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: … many terrible things to…
MARGARET BRENNAN: … the things that people see…
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: … lead to an increase in prices. I agree, Margaret.
(LAUGHTER)
MARGARET BRENNAN: No, but all the things you experience at the grocery store are what people touch and feel. That’s what – you were talking about bacon on the campaign trail.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Of course. Of course.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Those things, when do consumers actually get to touch and feel a difference in their lives?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Well, but, Margaret, how does bacon get to the grocery store? It comes on trucks that are fueled by diesel fuel. If the diesel is way too expensive, the bacon is going to become more expensive. How do we grow the bacon? Our farmers need energy to produce it.
So, if we lower energy prices, we are going to see lower prices for consumers, and that is what we’re trying to fight for.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, the flurry of executive orders, most of them weren’t about the economy. Many of them…
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Many of them were, though, Margaret. We had – I think we’ve had – we’ve taken over…
MARGARET BRENNAN: You had a promise of tariffs by February 1.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: We’ve taken over 200 executive actions, some executive orders, other executive actions. Again, this is in less than a week, and a lot of them were focused on the economy, bringing investment into our country and lowering energy prices.
We’ve also focused on safety, restoring public safety, ending weaponization of the Department of Justice. We’ve done a lot. And I think the president is to be commended for actually coming in and doing something with this incredible mandate the American people gave him. He’s not sitting in the Oval Office doing nothing. He’s doing the American people’s business. And I think they’re going to see a lot of good effects from it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, a lot of these announcements have yet to take effect.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The president did say he wants to do something with an executive order in relation to federal emergency response. He said he may reform or eliminate FEMA.
Instead of sending emergency responders, he may start to send a percentage of money to states to take care of themselves. But you know FEMA has specialized expertise that some of these states just don’t have…
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Oh, Margaret, I…
MARGARET BRENNAN: … in their arsenal.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: I wish that they…
MARGARET BRENNAN: And how will states who are – who are lower-income states, the Mississippis, the Kentuckys, the Alabamas, be able to do this for themselves without federal help?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Well, the president, to be clear, is not saying we’re going to leave anybody behind.
He’s saying that, in the way that we administer these resources, some of which is coming from the federal level, some of which is coming from the state level, we’ve got to get the bureaucrats out of the way and get the aid to the people who need it most.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But these are the first responders.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Let’s be honest, Margaret. You talk about the expertise from FEMA. FEMA in North Carolina, in California, in Florida with some of the hurricanes has often been a disaster. And it’s not because we don’t have good people at FEMA.
It’s because bureaucratic red tape and garbage prevents the rapid deployment of resources to the people who need it the most.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But the states are now going to have to do this themselves?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: The president is trying to encourage us to reform the way that we deliver emergency response in a way that gets resources to people who need it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, don’t take him literally, is what you’re saying?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: No, we should take the president at his word that FEMA needs desperate reform, because it does.
Margaret, when I went to North Carolina as V.P.-elect, but before we were sworn in, people would talk about how FEMA would get resources, food, medicine, water to a warehouse, but then would have no plan to get it from the warehouse to the people in the mountains who were literally starving and thirsting to death.
We can do so much better. And, under Donald Trump’s leadership, we will.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But they work with the state and local officials. So, now…
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: They often don’t work well enough. And, again, that’s not because of the…
MARGARET BRENNAN: … it’s going to be on the state and local officials?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: They – no, the FEMA management officials don’t work well enough with state and local officials to get resources to the people who need it.
We should expect – and this is, I think, one of the fundamental premises of President Trump’s leadership. The American people should expect more of their government. When there’s a terrible disaster, they should expect food, medicine and water to get to the people who need it.
When there’s a terrible fire in California, the fire hydrants ought to actually turn on. I am sick of the American people having such low expectations for their government. They should demand more of us, because it’s the greatest country in the world, and that’s what Donald Trump’s leadership promises to bring back.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So still count on the federal government, but watch that space.
Let me ask you about another area that you campaigned on quite a lot, and there was a flurry of activity on. And that has to do with immigration.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops this week condemned some of the executive orders signed by President Trump, specifically those allowing Immigration and Customs Enforcement to enter churches and to enter schools.
Do you personally support the idea of conducting a raid or enforcement action in a church service, at a school?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Well, let me – let me address this.
Of course, if you have a person who is convicted of a violent crime, whether they’re an illegal immigrant or a non-illegal immigrant, you have to go and get that person to protect the public safety. That’s not unique to immigration.
But let me just address the – this particular issue, Margaret, because, as a practicing Catholic, I was actually heartbroken by that statement. And I think that the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops needs to actually look in the mirror a little bit and recognize that when they receive over $100 million to help resettle illegal immigrants, are they worried about humanitarian concerns, or are they actually worried about their bottom line?
We’re going to enforce immigration law. We’re going to protect the American people.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Donald Trump promised to do that. And I believe the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, if they’re worried about the humanitarian costs of immigration enforcement, let them talk about the children who have been sex-trafficked because of the wide-open border of Joe Biden.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you – you personally support them going into schools and churches?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Let them talk about people like Laken Riley, who were brutally murdered.
I support us doing law enforcement against violent criminals, whether they’re illegal immigrants or anybody else, in a way that keeps us safe. Let me ask this question, Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But the…
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Let’s separate the immigration issue. If you had a violent murderer in a school, of course I want law enforcement…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Of course.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: … to go and get that person out.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Of course.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: So, then what’s the point of the question?
MARGARET BRENNAN: You changed the regulation this week. That’s the point of the question.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Exactly, to…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Giving the authority to go into churches…
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Yes, exactly.
MARGARET BRENNAN: … and go into schools.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: We empowered law enforcement to enforce the law everywhere to protect Americans.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But that also has a knock-on effect, a chilling effect, arguably, to people to not send their kids to school.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: I – I desperately hope it has a chilling effect…
MARGARET BRENNAN: In the churches…
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: … on illegal immigrants coming into our country.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You think the U.S. Conference of Catholics Bishops is – are actively hiding criminals from law enforcement?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: I think the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops has, frankly, not been a good partner in commonsense immigration enforcement that the American people voted for.
And I hope, again, as a devout Catholic, that they’ll do better.
MARGARET BRENNAN: There are five legal challenges already to one of the other immigration actions, the order on birthright citizenship.
A federal judge, appointed by Ronald Reagan, who I think you’d agree has some conservative credentials…
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Sure.
MARGARET BRENNAN: … paused the order to end birthright citizenship, calling it blatantly unconstitutional.
How do you reconcile this challenge to the 14th Amendment to the Constitution?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: So, I obviously disagree with that judge.
And these things, some of them will be litigated. That’s the nature of our constitutional system. But here’s the basic idea of President Trump’s view on this. If you are a lawful permanent resident or a legal immigrant who plans to stay, your children, of course, should become American citizens.
But let’s say you’re the child of an ambassador. You don’t become…
MARGARET BRENNAN: But that’s not part of it.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Well, that’s an important principle.
MARGARET BRENNAN: There’s already a carve-out having to do with kids of diplomats.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: But we’re saying that that carve-out should apply to anybody who doesn’t plan to stay here.
If you come here on vacation and you have a baby in an American hospital, that baby doesn’t become an American citizen. If you’re an illegal alien and you come here temporarily, hopefully, your child does not become an illegal – American citizen by virtue of just having been born on American soil.
It’s a very basic principle in American immigration law that, if you want to become an American citizen, and you’ve done it the right way, and the American people in their collective wisdom have welcomed you into our national community, then you become a citizen.
But temporary residents, people who come in here, whether legally or illegally, and don’t plan to stay…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: … their children shouldn’t become American citizens. I don’t know any country that does that, or why we would be different.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, but this is a country founded by immigrants.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Well, this is a country founded by…
MARGARET BRENNAN: This is a unique country.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: This is a very unique country, and it was founded by some immigrants and some settlers.
But just because we were founded by immigrants doesn’t mean that, 240 years later, that we have to have the dumbest immigration policy in the world. No country says that temporary visitors, their children will be given complete access to the benefits and blessings of American citizenship.
America should actually look out for the interests of our citizens first, and that means, again, if you’re here permanently and lawfully, your kid becomes an American citizen. If you’re not here permanently, if you’re not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: … and don’t plan to be, why would we make those people’s children American citizens permanently?
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to ask you about refugee admissions, which were just suspended by the president.
That has nothing to do with the U.S. border. Refugee screening takes 18 to 24 months to go through. They are heavily vetted. Left literally at the airport this week were thousands of Afghans who – some of whom had worked with the United States government and were promised to come here.
When you talked to us in August, you said: “I don’t think we should abandon anybody who’s been properly vetted and helped us.”
Do you stand by that?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Well, Margaret, I don’t agree that all these immigrants, or all these refugees have been properly vetted. In fact, we know that there are cases of people who allegedly were properly vetted and then were literally planning terrorist attacks in our country.
That happened during the campaign, if you may remember. So, clearly, not all of these foreign nationals have been properly vetted.
MARGARET BRENNAN: No, but there are 30,000 people in the pipeline, Afghan refugees. Do you stand by it?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: But my primary concern as the vice president, Margaret, is to look after the American people.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, no.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: And now that we know that we have vetting problems with a lot of these refugee programs, we absolutely cannot unleash thousands of unvetted people into our country. It’s not good.
MARGARET BRENNAN: These people are vetted. These people are vetted.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Just like the guy who planned a terrorist attack in Oklahoma a few months ago? He was allegedly properly vetted, and many people in the media and the Democratic Party said that he was properly vetted. Clearly, he wasn’t.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes, the…
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: I don’t want my children to share a neighborhood with people who are not properly vetted. And because I don’t want it for my kids, I’m not going to force any other American citizens’ kids to do that either.
MARGARET BRENNAN: No. And that was a very particular case. It wasn’t clear if he was radicalized when he got here or while he was living here, but…
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: I don’t really care, Margaret. I don’t want that person in my country, and I think most Americans agree with me.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will be back in one minute with more of our interview with Vice President Vance.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’re back with more from our conversation with the vice president.
(Begin VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Two weeks ago, you were on FOX News, and you said: “If you protested peacefully on January 6 and had Merrick Garland’s Department of Justice treat you like a gang member, you should be pardoned. If you committed violence on that day, obviously, you shouldn’t be pardoned.”
Did you counsel the president against these blanket pardons for 1,500 people…
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Well, Margaret, I notice that you…
MARGARET BRENNAN: … including those who committed violence?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Margaret, I notice that you cut off the thing that I said immediately after that.
The full quote is that, of course, there are gray areas. And here’s the nature of the gray area. Merrick Garland’s Department of Justice denied constitutional protections in the prosecutions. There were double standards in how sentences were applied to the J6 protesters versus other groups. What the president said consistently on the campaign…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Case-by-case basis.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: … is that he was going to look at a case-by- case basis…
MARGARET BRENNAN: This is blanket.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: And that’s exactly what we did. We looked at 1,600 cases.
And the thing that came out of it, Margaret, is that there was a massive denial of due process of liberty, and a lot of people were denied their constitutional rights. The president believes that. I believe that, and I think he made the right decision.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Daniel Rodriguez used an electroshock weapon against a policeman who was dragged out of the defensive line by plunging it into the officer’s neck. He was imprisoned, sentenced to 12 years, seven months. He got a pardon.
Ronald McAbee hit a cop while wearing reinforced brass-knuckle gloves, and he held one down on the ground as other rioters assailed the officer for over 20 seconds, causing a concussion.
If you stand with law enforcement, how can you call these people unjustly imprisoned?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Margaret, you’re separating – there’s an important issue here.
There’s what the people actually did on January the 6th, and we’re not saying that everybody did everything perfectly. And then what did Merrick Garland’s Department of Justice do in unjustly prosecuting well over 1,000 Americans in a way that was politically motivated?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is violence like that against a police officer ever justified?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Violence against a police officer is not justified.
But that doesn’t mean that you should have Merrick Garland’s weaponized Department of Justice expose you to incredibly unfair process, to denial of constitutional rights, and, frankly, to a double standard that was not applied to many people, including, of course, the Black Lives Matter rioters who killed over two dozen people and never had the weight of a weaponized Department of Justice come against them.
The pardon power is not just for people who are angels or people who are perfect. And, of course, we love our law enforcement and want people to be peaceful with everybody, but especially with our good cops. That’s a separate issue from what Merrick Garland’s Department of Justice did. We rectified a wrong, and I stand by it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I’m being told we’re out of time, but I want to quickly ask you.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: Sure. Please.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The richest men in the world were at that Capitol on Inauguration Day, heads of Amazon, Google, Mark Zuckerberg of Facebook.
In August, you told us Google and Facebook are too big. “We ought to take the Teddy Roosevelt approach. Break ’em up. Don’t let them control what people are allowed to say.”
They’ve now donated to the Trump inauguration. Are you still going to break up big tech?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: So, you know who else was at the inauguration was my mom, and a lot of people who just supported the president and fought every single day to get – get his election and to make it…
MARGARET BRENNAN: They gave $1 million each to the inauguration.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: … and to make it – and to make it possible.
And there were a lot of people who didn’t give a million dollars to the inauguration who were on that…
MARGARET BRENNAN: They got pretty good seating.
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: … who were on that – who were on that stage, Margaret.
They didn’t have as good of seating as my mom and a lot of other people who were there to support us. But, look, we believe fundamentally that big tech does have too much power, and there are two ways they can go about this. They can either respect America’s – Americans’ constitutional rights, they can stop engaging in censorship, and, if they don’t, you can be absolutely sure that Donald Trump’s leadership is not going to look too kindly on them.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So they’re still on notice?
VICE PRESIDENT J.D. VANCE: They’re very much on notice.
(End VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And we will be right back with a lot more Face the Nation.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We turn now to Ohio Republican Congressman Mike Turner.
Good morning. Good to have you here.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER (R-Ohio): Good morning. Thanks for having me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: A lot to get to with you.
I want to ask you about this breaking news that President Trump fired 15 inspectors general. Those are the federal watchdogs who monitor for waste, fraud and abuse. He didn’t give 30 days’ notice, as legally required. Does this concern you that these agencies can’t police themselves?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER:: Well, this is very common that there’s turnover when a new president comes in to do a review of what’s happening within these agencies and in the I.G.s.
I think there’ll be a review as they put these individuals back, and some of the individuals will be replaced, obviously. But, you know, clearly they need to bring in their own team now. They need to look at what the performance is for these individuals. And it’s very common as new administrations come in that specifically these positions be replaced.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, you’re not concerned these are just going to be loyalists?
(CROSSTALK)
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Well, every administration replaces them.
So, In the – in the end, they tend to be, I mean, what I have seen…
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: … and I think what we have seen throughout the – all administrations, That these tend to be incredibly professional individuals that really are great watchdogs. And I think we’ll see that from this administration.
MARGARET BRENNAN: What should happen now that the CIA has released this low-confidence assessment that it was most likely a lab leak, a research experiment, versus naturally occurring virus that resulted in the COVID pandemic?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER:: I mean, the Biden administration really has been an impediment to getting to the answer here. Congress passed…
MARGARET BRENNAN: This is their finding…
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER:: Right, but Congress passed and the Biden administration signed an order declassifying the information concerning the lab leak theory and the issues with respect to COVID origins.
And the administration still refused to release it. I think this is a great start.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: And, really, it’s been unfortunate that the administration has been slow.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: This is – it’s a good turning point, because, clearly, this was not of natural origins.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We have more to talk about on the China front, on the other side of this break.
So, stay with us, and we hope all of you will as well.
We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We will be right back with Congressman Mike Turner, plus Democratic Congressman Jason Crow of Colorado.
Stay with us.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Welcome back to FACE THE NATION. We return to our conversation now with Ohio Republican Congressman Mike Turner.
Just to pick up on the topic of China. We’ve been talking about TikTok. The law stated that January 19th the Supreme Court upheld this, that the owner, ByteDance, would have to sell TikTok to an American owner.
Inauguration Day, January 20th, the CEO of TikTok, whose company seemed a national security threat was U.S. law, was seated next to Tulsi Gabbard, the pick to run the intelligence community. Despite this national security law. You can see the picture of them right there.
And Mr. Trump seems to have given them a reprieve. The editorial board of “The Wall Street Journal” said, “Mr. Trump’s TikTok order shows a Biden- like disdain for limits on his power.”
What do you make of this decision not to implement the law for at least a period of time?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER (R-OH): Well, let’s be clear, TikTok is absolutely a national security threat. The law passed by Congress, that came out of the House China Select Committee that was chaired by Michael Gallagher, that drafted this law, found that TikTok was a national security risk because of two things, its access to data and its ability to use itself as a propaganda tool by China itself, and the laws in China that allowed China to compel TikTok to manipulate itself, both its data and its access to China and its use of propaganda.
The Supreme Court upheld this. It remains a national security threat. And because of that, the United States Congress, the law – that is the law of the land says that ByteDance need to divest itself.
Now, the only thing that would protect the United States, and protect our citizens, is divestiture.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Maning, sell it.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: And that means that ByteDance needs to divest itself.
Now, Elon Musk has said something very interesting. He has said, you know, of course he’s noted that Twitter, his X, does not have access to China. And that’s sort of an admission by China as to what they’re doing with TikTok. They won’t let Twitter or X in, almost an admission as to what they’re doing.
Also, you know, ByteDance have said, well, we don’t sell it. Another admission that it’s really not a business. This is a propaganda tool. It is an access to data.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But Donald Trump’s not convinced of that, because he issued an executive order saying he’ll figure out a deal.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Well, he has said – and we certainly hope that – that he gets a deal that recognizes the issue of national security, because there is no role –
MARGARET BRENNAN: But there was over 200 days to come to that deal and –
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: There is – there is no role in which –
MARGARET BRENNAN: They’re not selling.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: There is – there is no role. That’s what they’ve said, there is no role in which they can remain active in which China can have access to this data.
Let me give you just two examples. And, by the way, I commend to people the – the Supreme Court decision because it lays out in incredible detail the national security threat. If there aren’t – fi the data – if the app is on your phone, they have access to the data on your phone. And, you know, President Trump –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Outside of that app?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Outside of that app. And even the – the threat is to access that your phone has to other app and other datas. And that’s why governments have prohibited the app being on government phones, U.S., U.K. And India has banned the – the whole app in its – in its country.
And then, of course, there’s the propaganda aspect of how this can be manipulated. Romania just set aside its entire presidential election because of concerns that TikTok has manipulated data and propaganda with respect to its presidential election. Grave concerns as to what can be done with this – with TikTok.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to ask you as well about what’s happening on Capitol Hill. You’ve been on this program many times as chair of the House Intelligence Committee. Speaker Johnson ousted you from that position as chair recently. What can you share about – with us about the conversation you had and the explanation? Because you’ve run it in a bipartisan way.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Yes. And I think, you know, I think certainly bipartisanship is incredibly important. And after I had the conversation with the speaker, you and I – you and I spoke.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: The speaker related, you know, certainly as we, discussed, that, you know, an element included concerns from Mar-a-Lago. He’s sense walked that back. President Trump’s staff has been in touch with me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, he flatly denied it.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: President Trump’s staff has been in touch with me and said that that was not the case. The one thing that he has said is that he wanted to take the committee in a different direction.
I’m a little concerned because his different direction indicates, you know, pursuing the elusive deep state. And, you know, my concern is, the focus should be on the committee of national security, which has what my focus has been. And, you know, state actors, non-state actors, those individuals who want to do our country harm. There certainly are – are bad actors and people that we need to pursue. And we certainly have done so. We find that there are laws that – that need to be changed to pursue people, to criminalize bad actions. And we certainly have done that.
But there are people every day who get up in the intelligence community, who work hard to make certain that China, Russia, North Korea and Iran are prevented from doing Americans harm. And we need to focus on how we can work together to make certain we protect our country.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Because protecting the safety of Americans is a fundamental responsibility. But just to button one thing up, when you say the White House and Mar-a-Lago said that’s not the case, they didn’t ask for you to be replaced –
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Correct. That’s what –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Are you saying the speaker lied?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: I’m – I’m not – I’m not going to say that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: I – you know, I – I am – the speaker and I have, you know, a good relationship. The speaker has, at this point, appointed me to lead the – the NATO Parliamentary Assembly on behalf of the House. I remain on the Armed Services Committee. I’m going to remain in – with a strong role in national security. And I’m going to continue to focus on national security and on protecting the country.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The new chair had voted against Ukraine aid. When you say the mission is pursuing the elusive deep state, what does that mean, weaponizing the committee?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: I – I – you know, we’ll have to see as to what direction that they go. I know that that’s a concern and –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Going after the intelligence committee?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: I – I know that that’s going to be a concern. We’ll have to see what direction they go. I – I do know that national security is going to continue to be an area of concern. It certainly was my focus.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you – so, you are concerned that the oversight in the congressional branch of the intelligence community will not happen and will instead by focused in a politicized way? Is that what I hear you saying?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: I – I know that my focus was national security. And that’s going to continue to be my focus in Congress.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Very good.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: And we’ll have to – and we’ll have to stay tuned for the rest.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Very diplomatic.
Before I let you go, Donald Trump pulled security details from those who face active threats from Iran, including the former CIA director and Secretary of State Mike Pompeo. Would you ask him to reconsider that?
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Well, obviously, I’m very concerned for – for Mike Pompeo.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right, Mike Turner, thank you for your time.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE TURNER: Thank you for having me.
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: We’re joined now by Colorado Democratic Congressman Jason Crow.
Good morning to you.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW (D-CO): Good morning.
MARGARET BRENNAN: There is so much news this week. And I want to just pick up, though, on the conversation about January 6th that we had with the vice president.
You’ve spoken about your experiences that day in very, very vivid terms. You talked about helping other lawmakers shelter. They were fearing for their lives. To help them put on gas masks. There’s a picture of you that day even fighting your way out of the chamber since you had combat experience.
What’s your response to the vice president’s defense of pardoning some of these violent offenders?
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: Well, I don’t want to hear Donald Trump or J.D. Vance or anyone else in this administration talk about backing the blue, talk about supporting law enforcement when they just released over 1,000 cop beaters, people who brutally beat our law enforcement.
I was there. I saw it firsthand. America saw it firsthand. The video is available for anybody to view. The brutality, the injuries. Over 150 of these officers still have injuries, several of whom lost their lives because of the injuries and trauma incurred on that day. We even had the Fraternal Order of Police come out and issue a statement condemning the pardons.
So, clearly, they’re not interested in supporting law enforcement. This was a political decision and a really repugnant one at that.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to ask you more about that, but I have to address the elephant in the room too because Monday, hours before leaving office, Joe Biden, then still president, preemptively pardoned his own siblings and their spouses, even though they have not been charged with any crimes. Senator Tim Kaine said, “the decision makes it harder for Democrats to stan on the high ground and make a critique of the Trump pardons.”
Do you agree it muddies moral clarity?
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: No. What I think happens here is that it shows very clearly the decision of an outgoing president to try to protect his family when you have an incoming president, and those around him who are repeatedly threatening his family, right? That is the story here, that you have Donald Trump, who has doubled down, who has tripled down on threats against Joe Biden, on threats against outgoing administration officials, simply for doing their job in many cases. This is a president, President Trump, who continues to threaten political opponents and is making every move right now in the early days of his administration to try to put in motion things to go after and to use the force of government now to go after his political opponents.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I hear you on concerns about retribution. You were plain spoken when Joe Biden pardoned his son, Hunter, who had been convicted of multiple crimes. And, in fact, you said in very clear terms, you thought that it did create problems for Democrats.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: Yes, in that instance I did.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You see a difference?
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: You know, I thought that there was a conflict of interest that undermined the integrity of the process. And what I would like to see overall is pardon reform. Very clearly, there needs to be some guardrails put in place and some reform of the pardon process. And I think most Americans would agree with this, to make sure that it’s not misused. Because a lot of this is about the perception of America. You know, people need to know that the person sitting in the Oval Office has their best interests in mind at all times. And certainly not with Donald Trump right now can they have that feeling of trust and confidence because in five days into this administration the abuse is already rampant.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You – to go back to January 6th, because there are comparisons being made. And I hear your point on pardon reform, which is basically saying presidents need guardrails on this stuff, even if they’re Democrats.
But one of the people pardoned by Donald Trump was Stewart Rhodes. He was released from an 18-year prison sentence for conspiring to violently stop Congress’ role in the transfer of power.
He was at the Capitol this Wednesday after receiving a pardon. This is a man who was recorded having said in 2021 that he wished he had brought rifles on January 6th and he spoke about hanging Nancy Pelosi.
How do you make sense of that? How do lawmakers make sense of that? And are you concerned about political violence, not specifically necessarily just to him, but – but that this encourages more of that?
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: Yes, well, I’m sitting here last week in my office on Capitol Hill, and I turn on the TV and I see that a couple of floors below me Stewart Rhodes, as you mentioned, one of the heads of an armed militia group in America, is having coffee at the Dunkin’ Donuts in the basement of my office building. So, of course, I felt uncomfortable about that, as did most of my colleagues.
And I’m very focused on public safety. I always have been in this job. And you just cannot tell me that releasing militia leaders, insurrectionists, criminals back onto the street because it’s what you did to placate your political base is making us any more safe, right? In an era of political violence, of extremist, where threats against members of Congress have quadrupled in the last couple of years, none of this is making us safe. It’s actually creating an environment that gives permission to extremists to be more bold, to assert themselves. And we’re going to see more of this.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to switch to what’s happening in Colorado. Aurora, Colorado, is in your district. That is a location that president and candidate Trump talked quite a lot about, specifically as an example of immigration run amuck. He talks about the migrant Venezuelan gang, TDA, taking over parts of your city. Something local officials have pushed back on certainly. They were designated as a terrorist group by President Trump. Or he started the process to designate them.
What does that do for the people of Aurora?
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: Wel, you know, I’ve pushed back pretty fiercely on Donald Trump’s lies because this is my hometown. I live there. And I can tell you that Aurora, Colorado, is a place of great pride and great strength. We are a community of immigrants and refugees. Nearly 20 percent of my constituents were born outside of the United States. These are our business owners. These are our friends. They go to school with my children. They work in our community. They grow businesses in our community.
And the rhetoric of Donald Trump, both on the campaign trail and now, demonizing these folks and telling gross lies and exaggerations is not only – not only impugns the reputation of a strong and vibrant community –
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: But it makes those folks less safe. And I will stand up over and over again and push back against those lies.
MARGARET BRENNAN: OK.
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: At the same time it does nothing to advance the cause of comprehensive immigration reform, which we desperately need, right?
MARGARET BRENNAN: Yes. Well –
REPRESENTATIVE JASON CROW: Anybody knows that our system is badly broken. And Donald Trump is not making the moves to fix it.
MARGARET BRENNAN: All right, Jason Crow. Congressman, thank you for your time.
We’ll be back in a moment.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: The ceasefire deal in the Middle East appears to be holding, though portions are delayed. Four female Israel soldiers held captive by Hamas were released yesterday along with 200 Palestinian prisoners held by Israel. If the deal holds, two American hostages are expected to be released in the coming weeks.
Cartels – returning to the subject of immigration, we’re joined now by CBS immigration and politics reporter, Camilo Montoya-Galvez, who is arguably the busiest person in the entire CBS bureau right now.
Camilo, I want to have you bottom line some things.
I understand you have new reporting about some of the plans for migrants being deported.
CAMILO MONTOYA-GALVEZ: That’s right. We can report that the Trump administration is currently working on striking an asylum agreement with the country of El Salvador to deport migrants from different countries across Latin America to the small country in Central America. This would be a so-called safe third country asylum agreement that would empower U.S. immigration officials, Margaret, to deport non-Salvadoran migrants to El Salvador with instructions to seek asylum there and not in the U.S.
Importantly, I am told that one plan under consideration would allow the U.S. to deport Venezuelan Tren de Aragua gang members to El Salvador and have that country house them or detain them. And that would, obviously, be a significant development and break through potentially for the administration because, as you know, Venezuela, right now, currently does not accept U.S. deportations. And so, the administration is moving aggressively and quickly to really oversee a sweeping crackdown on immigration. We have seen the president invoke sweeping constitutional powers to essentially shut down the asylum system at the border. And he is also enlisting the vast resources of the military to really enhance immigration enforcement, not only deploying more troops, but using military planes to deport migrants.
And, yes, there have been so far 1,500 troops deployed to the border. But one internal Customs and Border Protection memo we obtain, Margaret, shows that that number could rise to as many as 10,000 active duty troops.
MARGARET BRENNAN: There’s so much that you just laid out there. Secretary of State Marco Rubio is expected to go to El Salvador in the coming days.
CAMILO MONTOYA-GALVEZ: That’s right. Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, I imagine it’s related to the news you just broke here.
CAMILO MONTOYA-GALVEZ: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And – and TDA is the gang we were just talking about with the congressman as well.
CAMILO MONTOYA-GALVEZ: That’s right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: In terms of how the U.S. military is being used, President Biden left 2,500 U.S. troops at the border.
CAMILO MONTOYA-GALVEZ: Yes.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, what’s actually different now that there’s an extra 1,500?
CAMILO MONTOYA-GALVEZ: Well, the work is not changing. What is changing is the number of troops on the ground. They are still assigned to do logistical and operational work and to assist Customs and Border Protection in an operational capacity by, for example, setting up border barriers to repel migrants from entering the country illegally and providing surveillance. They are not to be used to arrest or otherwise process migrants because, as you know, longstanding federal law prohibits the use of the military for civilian law enforcement. And that would include the enforcement of federal immigration laws.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, it’s the optics essentially that this is –
CAMILO MONTOYA-GALVEZ: It’s a show of force by the Biden –
MARGARET BRENNAN: It’s a show of force?
CAMILO MONTOYA-GALVEZ: By the Trump administration, rather.
MARGARET BRENNAN: And what, in terms of the changes have occurred in terms of use of military? We were hearing about lots of deportations. Now it seems we’re getting reports daily of military planes carrying migrants to Guatemala.
CAMILO MONTOYA-GALVEZ: That’s right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: An attempt, apparently, to Columbia as well.
CAMILO MONTOYA-GALVEZ: That’s right. So, the administration has already used military planes to deport migrants to the country of Guatemala. And, overnight, it attempted to send two military aircraft to Columbia, sending about 160 deportees from that country to Bogota, Columbia, the capital. But we are told now that the president of Columbia, Gustavo Petro, objected to the use of military planes and blocked those deportations. So, this shows that the administration will still face significant diplomatic challenges as it tries to oversee this aggressive immigration plan.
MARGARET BRENNAN: The Biden team was deporting to those countries. They were using civilian aircraft.
CAMILO MONTOYA-GALVEZ: ICE charter flights, correct.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So, the military planes were the problem there?
CAMILO MONTOYA-GALVEZ: And, again, it’s a show of force by the Trump administration.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Got it. All right, bottom lining it for us. Thank you, Camilo.
We’ll be right back.
(ANNOUNCEMENTS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Last week was a long and dramatic one, especially for the Washington area. We asked our John Dickerson for his thoughts on just one of the many actions taken by President Trump, the pardons of the 1,500 who had been charged for their roles in the attack on the nation’s capital just over four years ago.
(BEGIN VT)
JOHN DICKERSON (voice over): Every morning, Capitol Police officers make good on their pledge to ensure that lawmakers, citizens and the press can move safely through the Capitol. They protect an idea that in that building passionate disputes can find peaceful resolution. Each day their willingness to sacrifice honors this American system, whether violence comes or not.
On January 6, 2021, violence came, and they answered their oath’s call. Heroes emerged. The lawmakers they protected praised their bravery.
SENATOR TED CRUZ (R-TX): Law enforcement went in, Capitol Police and Secret Service, they bravely confronted the terrorists. They bravely removed them. They secured the Capitol.
JOHN DICKERSON (voice over): One hundred and forty officers were injured, some sustained brain injuries, cracked ribs and even shattered spinal discs. In the following days, one officer, Brian Sicknick, would die from his physical wounds, while four others would take their own lives. A plaque was commissioned to honor them. Plaques are made of metal because they are meant to be as durable as the message, do not forget. A plaque transforms courage and sacrifice of an instant into lessons for the future in case lawmakers lose their way.
The symbols of Inauguration Day do that, too. The Rotunda painting of General Washington giving up power, Lincoln’s Bible, acts of heroism in service of democratic ideals, nourishment from the past to the present. All serve one idea, that the voice of the people is honored through a peaceful transfer of power. On Inauguration Day, both parties applauded this.
Law enforcement stood guard over the peaceful transition, but the shared commitment to what they protected proved more fragile than their watch. By sundown, the president, sanctified by those symbols, and now the steward of the ideas they represent, pardoned the 1,500 rioters who had sought to disrupt the peaceful transfer of power on January 6th and overturn the vote of 81 million Americans. Among those whose crimes were erased, those who had pierced, electrocuted and smashed police officers. The lawmakers the officers had protected offered no defense.
REPRESENTATIVE MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): The president’s made a decision. We move forward. There are better days ahead of us.
MAN: We are not looking backward, we’re looking forward.
JOHN DICKERSON (voice over): In this case, the past is a nuisance, which may be why that plaque has not been hung. What message does that send to the officers who protected lawmakers on January 6th, and still protect them today?
Perhaps the ideas behind their pledge are not meant to be commemorated in iron after all, but have become as empty as the wall where that promised plaque was supposed to hang.
(END VT)
MARGARET BRENNAN: And tomorrow marks a new era at the “CBS Evening News.” John and our Maurice DuBois will be taking the anchor seats. I’ll be joining them as needed for Washington coverage. Check your local listings and we’ll see you there. And, of course, I’ll see you every Sunday on FACE THE NATION.
I’m Margaret Brennan. Thank you all for watching.
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